Military structure of Rangers of the Reunited Kingdom

[Stormraven]

Need some help from you guys if I might ask. Our group is growing larger. We now have 8 Rangers - 4 active and 4 still working on kits. We're getting large enough that we're wanting to add a military rank structure. Been doing some research but of course it contradicts itself. I get information on the regular army of Gondor but not much on the Rangers. I know the people here do different time periods within Middle Earth and some don't do Gondorian Rangers but Rangers of the North. Could any of you out there offer any up-to-date information on how we should label and organize our rank structure. Right now, we're basically the size of a squad but we could possibly grow to company size, that is, if Ranger companies were smaller than regular army.
We'd also be willing, if there are any other groups out there interested, banding together to form a rank structure, at least for use on paper. In other words, it your group is 8 and mine is 8 and another is 6 or 7, we band together and elect a higher officer. After all, we are fighting for Gondor. We may never meet up but again we may but at least we would be trying to keep the structure sound geographically. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

[Daerir]

It depends on how you want to branch it out. I see two options:

1. Grandmaster- Master- Apprentice versions or

2 Commission (multiple leaders) - Master - Apprentice.

Of course you could pick your own names. The Dundain, or Rangers of the North have a Chieftain, and I think Commanders as the second command.

I suppose you could also do a combination of the two if you were really large. Grandmaster (Chieftain) - Commissioners -Master (Commanders) - Apprentices (Recruits maybe?)

EDIT: I also recall that Faramir was Captain of Gondors Rangers so Captain is the Ithilien term for Grandmaster.

[Stormraven]

Thank you Daerir. Sounds very "Templar-like". I did find some information online that applied to the Army of Gondor. A Tulkarim was a squad and numbered 16 and a Turma was a company and numbered 96-256. One term is a "cainenhir" which is a "leader of 10" and over a squad. But they also list a Methirlaur or lance corporal who could command the same. Anyway, it's all very confusing. I think that some of this information may come from the Lord of the Rings gaming systems. Unfortunately, I haven't played MERPS in many a year and don't have access to that information and I believe that different game systems may conflict. What I would like to do is to find the most universal system that people are using and use that so we can keep things mostly the same.
I'm not sure how many Rangers Faramir had under his command while in Ithilien but you're right, he was called "Captain". I would assume they would have the equivalents of private, corporal, sergeant, lieutenant, etc. that we are used to, although they had their own names for them.
Another thing, we decided to reenact the Fourth Age when the Reunited Kingdom came into being so I imagine some things could be different than earlier ages. Any more help you can give is much appreciated.

[Stormraven]

In further research, I did find this link which seems to have some promising information - just not sure of the references. Any thoughts on this?

http://wiki.lindefirion.net/GondorMilitaryRanks

[Daerir]

Hmmm, I couldn't really find to much on Fourth Age Rangers, but if I had to pick titles for them it would be a tree system.

I remember in LOTRO kinships had titles.
The man-style was;

Founder
Chief (Usually the Founder too. Responsible for ranking up people to Officer)
Provost (Officer position who did the recruiting and booting)
Kinsman/woman
Recruit (didnt really have a title, just referred to as recruits)

[Daerir]

If I were you, I would make up my own titles. I read online somewhere that if Middle Earth did indeed exist, we would currently be in the Seventh Age.

In Ranger's Apprentice books, rangers had three ranks. There was the Ranger Commandant, then there were the ordinary Rangers, and the apprentices. There was also retire-ees but they were mostly the older rangers that couldnt go out in the field.

[Stormraven]

Yeah, I considered using a tree system - like a thistle for a recruit for thistles usually stand alone, a vine for the next level for it usually clings to tree or bush. A maple or fir tree for the next for it's the first spring ups in new growth forest and then finally to other hardwoods like birch and oak. I saw the reference to chief that you listed. I just think it would be good for all of us to come up with something agreed upon on the forum to use. Also, and this may be a huge undertaking, I think it would be good if we could somehow document all the Ranger groups out there, say by continent and they could in turn, get together and decide on rank structures and possibly elect officers. As I said before, none of these people might get together but at least it would be documented on paper so that the ranking makes sense. After all, rangers often operated over vast distances without ever seeing another Ranger group.

[Elleth]

I don't think a master/apprentice system really has enough depth to manage a real military force. It's one thing to have the young men each tailing an experienced woodsmen around an outlying village in the "post apocalypse" of a fallen Kingdom - another thing entirely to try to coordinate a strategic mission into hostile territory, coordinating the resources of two dozen allied settlements to do so. One person simply can't effectively manage hundreds of people directory - the human brain simply can't hold that much in "RAM" at once. So he delegates authority to subordinates. And they in turn delegate.. all the way down. Then you have to maintain that structure over time, so as to prevent (or at least reduce the impact of) ad-hoc power struggles every time a hole opens up the authority chain. Enter ranks.

Things get all the more complicated if all those settlements are subject to a common sovereign, who himself would want to maintain at least some control as he plays the power game on the kingdom level. (Given medieval comms and just plain reality on the ground there always be unauthorized hostile contact, but a monarch who can't control his own army has no power at all ).

A layers-deep rank structure - and one separating nobles from rank&file, officers and enlisted - evolved for a reason.

As regards Tolkien's world.. if information in his own writing is lacking, I imagine looking to the Anglo Saxon fyrd system would be a good inspiration for Third-Age Arnor. Gondor always struck me as holding on to the light of former days a bit better... I'd look at Roman examples there. Probably late Roman, c. 300 AD or so, once there was lots of Germanic influence but before everything fell totally to pieces.

[Ringulf]

The Master apprentice system works well for the Araluen type Rangers, but it represents more of a craft structure than a military force to me.
When you have a maximum of fifty fiefed rangers and each has an apprentice , with an ansilarry "corps" not assigned but as an overhead command this seems ok. But the Rangers of the fourth age would be an acting (if selective) branch of the the Kingdom's military.

I remember reading, though I may have to look it up again, that the Gondorian Rangers (prior to the end of the war of the ring) were a select special force comprised of only the most skillfull or experienced soldiers the Gondorian army could offer, and they purposefully wore nothing that could personally identify them.
That being the case, they knew their leaders but the structure was not publisized.

Now in the Fourth Age you will have the addition of the Dunadain, Northern Rangers with King Ellisar thier cheiftain and overseeing their intigration and the reformation of the Kingdom's forces, so it would make sense to me both politically and culturaly that the Northern Dunadain would hold higher positions over the commen men of Gondor.

There may be mixed feelings about that amongst the troops, but I think their awe over their new king and his valour would still most of the dissedent tongues among them.
In this scenario the Rangers would most likely become somewhat "demistified" as to their secrecy and more of a special forces type organization which still would be selective but a bit more obtainable. As there job description has changed somewhat after the war. They would still be a vigalent borderwatch but perhaps a bit more of a policeing force and mop up crew for all the evil creatures that are left leaderless and hungry on the borders of "civilised" lands.

Therefore I would think that it would be feasable and proper to structure the branch along the lines of the Gondorian military but utilize the unique and selective nature of the Ranger Corp to use Sindarin or more Dunadain specific names to maintain their esprit de corps.

[Stormraven]

All of you have great ideas. I agree with you Ringulf that the Reunited Kingdom Rangers would be integrated, perhaps even with many remaining Elves and even Dwarves. I would like us all to come up with something mutually agreed upon, especially here on the forum, if that could be done (I know rangering has a sense of independency too). I'm having to make some fast decisions today as our numbers have increased yet again. I think for now, we'll go with the Captain, Lieutenant, Sergeant, Corporal, Private system and it's Sindarin equivalents until something else better, if there is something better, comes along. I've been appointed Brevit Captain but I'm voluntarily ceding my rank to another today as my true calling lies with the Quartermaster Corps. I still am anxious for all of your continued ideas. Thank you.

[Elleth]

Personally, I think having a "real" rank structure - ie, one that be confused as conferring real-world authority - would be a bad mistake for what amounts to a recreational hiking group. People do funny things when you put them in an authority structure, and that's much, much worse outside real world accountability. (IE, a real army captain is accountable for his orders and behavior to staff above him, there's hosts of rules he has to follow himself - and even then the real .mil has its share of problems. Because people are people, and even a little power is an intoxicant. )

Add to that your state may have laws against para-military organizations. It sounds stupid when you're talking about a half dozen teenagers in the woods with bows - but it's wise to check the laws nevertheless.

All of which is to say - wear whatever stripes you want on the costume, use whatever titles you like ... but make certain everyone knows up front that John can't REALLY order Bill to do so much as eat an ice cream sundae.

[Stormraven]

I agree with your concerns Elleth. I was just following the example of many of the re-enactment groups that I've belonged to (Mainly 18th century and Civil War) where rank was assigned. In those genres, we mainly followed the protocol out of wanting to be as authentic as we could as well as having someone who could be a spokesperson or schedule encampments. Usually there was an officer and well as NCO's who might decide when to strike camp, where camp would be set up, etc. In any organization, it's good to have facilitators to get things done because some people will sit on their hands. And there's the ol' 90-10 rule where 10% of the people do 90% of the work. While I guess we could technically be deemed to be "para-military", I'm pretty sure everyone knows we're not going to try and take over the government or cause civil unrest. Kinda hard to take out an F-22 with a bow. You have good points though and should be heeded.

[Elleth]

.. and I no doubt am overcautious. It does seem to work well with enough with military reenactor groups, as you mention. And scouts for that matter.

[Daerir]

I found this on a wiki abd it's the basic structure of gondors royal army. From what I've read, the rangers of ithilien remain the rangers of ithilien, serving the Prince of Ithilien. This is what I found got the trend of the Royal Army of the Reunited Kingdom.

Captain-General
General
Captain
Second Captain
Knight banneret
Cornet/Ensign
Sergeant
Knight/Man-at-Arms

My guess would be, the rangers of the north would remain on the north, just the same as always, serving the chieftain who would bore be serving the high king, and the southern rangers would retain their military ranking system.

Here's the web page http://nationstates.wikia.com/wiki/Roya ... or-Gondor)

[Stormraven]

Do you guys have any thoughts on the number of Rangers operating in a typical unit? I know in modern special forces groups, small tactical units can range from 4 -8 or so. Also in the modern context, it's not unusual to have operators with higher ranks, as they usually had a rank before being selected for the special forces unit. From what I've been able to glean, the Rangers of Gondor during the Third Age were chosen by the Steward himself and usually from amongst the noble families and regular army. There was this thing about them still having the right blood. Anyway, by the 4th Age, some speculate that others would have been integrated into their ranks, from other parts of the Reunited Kingdom. The Rangers of Ithilien became sort of a personal guard for the Prince of Ithilien but evidently still operated in the field.
Rank for us is mainly going to be cosmetic but we would like to get it right. We're not trying to see how many braids we can add to our cloaks but it would be nice to stay accurate to the genre. Any thoughts on what the typical rankings might be amongst a group of say 10 Rangers? Any of your thoughts would be most appreciated.